Trigun or Cowboy Bebop?

Falco53 · #21

Originally posted by Wyborn:
^ ALL determining factors in most anime are aesthetic, so don't ridicule him for holding one over the other (music over animation, for instance).

"ALL" determining factors in "most" anime? So you are saying "most" anime just need good music, good animation, and VAs with pleasant voices to be good? What about, um, plot?

I would like some cheese with my wine.

Wyborn · #22

Strictly speaking, plots are purely aesthetic.

Falco53 · #23

^Um, not really. The aesthetic quality has to do with things you can see, hear, etc. Something that is aesthetically pleasing is generally percieved to be pleasing to the senses.

When was the last time you read a book with great aesthetic quality?

Wyborn · #24

A plot is just a series of events which are connected together, which is just as aesthetic as anything visual or sound-related. These events do not, strictly speaking, allow us any introspection into a character, nor do they allow us any insight into the motives of the writers themselves. The plot, purely speaking, is the most aesthetic part of any anime or book, and the ultimate crutch: too often, the justification for a character comes solely from what happens to him and around him, and less on what he does and why he does it.

Yes, in that sense, books can be heavily reliant on aesthetic flair just as much as an anime can - style can often be substituted for substance...or, more simply, they can make something or someone "cool" by throwing them in an appropriate situation without actually making the characters themselves unique or interesting.

This is a part of why I like Trigun better than Cowboy Bebop - the main protagonist of Cowboy Bebop doesn't receive much character development outside of a select few episodes (Ballad of Fallen Angels, Jupiter Jazz, Real Folk Blues), while one of the whole points of Trigun is the inspection of Vash as an individual. He's not only deeper than Spike, he manages to be more human while being unbelievably idealistic.

Anyway, yeah. Plots are aesthetic. Generally speaking, characters aren't.

Falco53 · #25

Originally posted by Wyborn:
1) A plot is just a series of events which are connected together, which is just as aesthetic as anything visual or sound-related. These events do not, strictly speaking, allow us any introspection into a character, nor do they allow us any insight into the motives of the writers themselves. The plot, purely speaking, is the most aesthetic part of any anime or book, and the ultimate crutch: too often, the justification for a character comes solely from what happens to him and around him, and less on what he does and why he does it.

2) Yes, in that sense, books can be heavily reliant on aesthetic flair just as much as an anime can - style can often be substituted for substance...or, more simply, they can make something or someone "cool" by throwing them in an appropriate situation without actually making the characters themselves unique or interesting.

3) This is a part of why I like Trigun better than Cowboy Bebop - the main protagonist of Cowboy Bebop doesn't receive much character development outside of a select few episodes (Ballad of Fallen Angels, Jupiter Jazz, Real Folk Blues), while one of the whole points of Trigun is the inspection of Vash as an individual. He's not only deeper than Spike, he manages to be more human while being unbelievably idealistic.

1) Although I still disagree, whether or not a plot is aesthetic is not my point. Let me put it like this: the art quality/style and music quality/style affect your perception of the characters and the story, but it does not affect the character. The art and music are there to accentuate certain parts. Just like how in a game the gameplay is more important than graphics and sound.

2) That which makes the character "cool" is how said character reacts to the situation he or she has been thrown into.

3) That is why I don't like Cowboy Bebop as much everyone else (I like it, I just don't love it). Cowboy Bebop feels like a bunch of filler episodes thrown together.

Wyborn · #26

Originally posted by Falco53:
1) Although I still disagree, whether or not a plot is aesthetic is not my point. Let me put it like this: the art quality/style and music quality/style affect your perception of the characters and the story, but it does not affect the character. The art and music are there to accentuate certain parts. Just like how in a game the gameplay is more important than graphics and sound.

My point is that lpots are still aesthetic qualities, and since we're debating my point more than yours, I think that's what coutns: you're forgetting that plots are just there to accentuate a character.

2) That which makes the character "cool" is how said character reacts to the situation he or she has been thrown into.

That would be true if we're speaking ideally, but in practice it's often just not the case. In a lot of cases - especially that of Bebop, from time to time - a character's "coolness" comes from the situation instead of how they react to it. An example of that would be Vicious, I guess: his reactions to any given situation are limited to dark brooding and quietly muttering symbolic threats, yet he is perceived as one of the greatest villains in anime.

This, of course, is in contrast to someone like Mad Pierrot, who made his episode all by himself and actually made Spike take the back seat.

3) That is why I don't like Cowboy Bebop as much everyone else (I like it, I just don't love it). Cowboy Bebop feels like a bunch of filler episodes thrown together.

...that wasn't what I was talking about.

Why did you bother numbering my "points" if they were all elaborating on the same thing?

Falco53 · #27

Originally posted by Wyborn:
1)My point is that lpots are still aesthetic qualities, and since we're debating my point more than yours, I think that's what coutns: you're forgetting that plots are just there to accentuate a character.

2) That would be true if we're speaking ideally, but in practice it's often just not the case. In a lot of cases - especially that of Bebop, from time to time - a character's "coolness" comes from the situation instead of how they react to it. An example of that would be Vicious, I guess: his reactions to any given situation are limited to dark brooding and quietly muttering symbolic threats, yet he is perceived as one of the greatest villains in anime.

This, of course, is in contrast to someone like Mad Pierrot, who made his episode all by himself and actually made Spike take the back seat.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />3)Cowboy Bebop feels like a bunch of filler episodes thrown together.

3)...that wasn't what I was talking about.

4) Why did you bother numbering my "points" if they were all elaborating on the same thing? </font>[/QUOTE]1) A plot does not accentuate a character in the same way as music or the art style. The plot directly involves the character(s), the music and art style do not. The plot is often a device used to change a character's persona-- sometimes in a short time and sometimes over a very long period of time. The music never changes the characters. Neither does the art. The plot is what moves things. When two characters fight, you might want to know why. When the protagonist goes somewhere, the music can't tell you what is going on. What happens in the story is the result of the plot mixed together with the characters' reactions. Music and art are seperate.

2) If I recall you were speaking of an ideal situation when you argued that the plot is aesthetic. What you said really doesn't prove anything.

3) It's still true.

4) I'm not numbering your "points". Numbering makes it easier to address a statement, and it makes it easier for you to know what I am referring to when I say something.