Goku Is Not A Good Father (aka The Official DBS Liveblogging Thread)

[Apollo the Just]

^^ it is rather interesting how the series went from a Dragon Ball where Goku is roughly based on the Monkey King, which is a figure of folklore, to SPACE AND ALIENS AND GETTING SWOOOOOOLLEEE in Dragon Ball Z.

I'm into it though.

[Apollo the Just]

i was about to write a long essay about how the Buu saga is so great that it might even be my favorite and listing all the reasons why

but Gohan's death just now was such **** ******** that I take it all back. It would have been SO DRAMATIC AND TRAGIC if he was like done in by one of Piccolo's attacks or something...... but no. After like 250 episodes of being pretty much the only main character who DOESNT die,, he gets **** done in by a pink blob yoinking him from behind. And I get that it's so Buu becomes even STRONGER AND MORE MENACING BLAH BLAH so Goku and Vegeta can have a cool fusion fight or whatever. But. I feel so robbed. Gohan died so **** lamely so Goku can have a harder bossfight. I'm so angry I WAITED 250 EPISODES FOR MY SON TO DIE DRAMATICALLY AND I GET THIS CRAP

[Valigarmander]

[spoiler]Technically, he and the others aren't dead...[/spoiler]

If I remember correctly, Toriyama was really trying to have Goku pass the torch on to Gohan (hence SSJ2 Gohan defeating the villain in the Cell saga, and Mystic Gohan training with the Kais in the Buu saga), but his editors forced him to go back to moar Goku.

[Apollo the Just]

^ passing the torch would have made such a better narrative...... I'm over Goku

[spoiler]I mean I guess he's not dead but it was still ******** and I'm still going to be salty about it forever UNLESS he gets a better death later[/spoiler]

[Valigarmander]

[spoiler]I'm... not going to say anything. Enjoy the rest of the saga.[/spoiler]

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

I heard it was fans who wanted Goku over Gohan, but Toriyama doesn't like listening to them so maybe it was his editors. Either way, passing the torch just doesn't work when the person doesn't want to hold it. Gohan just wants to dress like a Power Ranger and get good grades. I don't know how Toriyama could possibly continue the series after Cell and keep Gohan as the main guy without altering his character.

[Apollo the Just]

Nah, I feel that too. It just kind of felt awkward how Gohan's character changed so much leading up to him facing off with Buu, to the extent he was finally prepared and willing to kill him to save the Earth ((for once his decision and not anyone else's)) and had that whole dramatic power up thing preparing for it, and then he gets like 2 episodes of badassery before just getting absorbed so Goku can take over and have to fuse with Vegeta (hasn't happened yet but come on we all know it's coming. AND GRANTED, I AM HERE FOR IT. But)

I have been 1000% behind the direction of the Buu arc until literally just now ((Gotenks is a **** blessing his entire fight was pure gold)), it was just weird how all of a sudden Gohan's character does a 180 and basically turns into Goku out of nowhere and then just gets absorbed. I was like............ OkaY.........

Even piccolo comments like "I didn't recognize his ki because his meekness is entirely gone" - like the dramatic power up thing changed him as a person and when he lands he's like P MUCH LITERALLY GOKU and then nothing even comes of it. I felt robbed


----

e: in good news, Goku came back to life to protect Gohan. Congratulations Goku you've done one (1) thing purely out of concern for your son. I'm proud of you

[Apollo the Just]

[QUOTE="CuccoLady, post: 1593543, member: 30977"][spoiler]I mean I guess he's not dead but it was still ******** and I'm still going to be salty about it forever UNLESS he gets a better death later[/spoiler][/QUOTE]

god **** damn it you guys

[X-3]

[Valigarmander]

Well, at least he didn't get blown up by a Saibaman.

[Apollo the Just]

Alright so I finished this anime an hour ago and I haven't moved from the same position of lying on my bed since. I just. I have a lot of Feelings.

Overall, I really enjoyed the Buu arc. The Saiyaman saga was flawless, allowed for Gohan to be the person he always wanted to be, showed Goten and Trunks looking up to him as such a positive role model (you know, like Goku ABSOLUTELY WAS NOT), and was so adorable. The epilogue was 99% fantastic- VIDEL AND GOHAN DRESSING UP AS SUPERHEROES TOGETHER GOD BLESS THEM, Goten and Trunks being ridiculous and fusing in the bath for like no reason, Pan's entire existence (Gohan is going to be SUCH A GREAT DAD)... and of course, MAJOR shout-out to Buu era Vegeta for being a goddamn MVP. Him hugging Trunks, him sacrificing himself for his family, him owning up to his weakness, recognizing how much his family means to him, being a dad, calling out to the people of earth, almost dying so Goku can dick around not-charging his ki......... and finally. Of COURSE, I am thankful for fusion. Gotenks is a blessing and Vegito is A VERY ATTRACTIVE HUNK OF MAN MEAT.

But all that aside.... I definitely have a couple gripes. Especially since this is following up on the Cell saga, which was so emotional and intense and centered around Goku's and Gohan's relationships with each other and with their own separate powers and abilities.

Gripe One:

SSJ2 was first introduced after an ENTIRE SERIES of foreshadowing. Gohan's random bursts of insane power had been brought up again and again, as something specific to him. So if his base level of existence was Super Saiyan, drawing out such a burst of power would create something entirely new. And the context in which it arose was really sad and dramatic and angsty but also specifically his.

So when later Goku goes SSJ2 as a stepping stone before going SSJ3 it feels a little like it devalues Cell Gohan? Like it takes something that was specifically his and makes it a stepping stone to something else. I don't super dig that, I think the two abilities should have been kept separate.

Gripe Two:

Gohan becomes a **** plot device. He gets a power up with no training or effort on his part, then his personality suddenly becomes an exact replica of Goku's, then he gets absorbed and then he gets saved only to get killed while unconscious. Then after all is done his personality and power seem to have completely reverted so literally what was the point of that. If Gohan wasn't going to be a major fighter in this arc (GOOD!! THAT WORKS WELL FOR HIM) he could have been more involved in Goten and Trunks's training and fight instead??? Since they look up to him and all

Gripe Three:

The series seems to kind of abandon its sense of lineage at the end. Like, Gohan gets his story told start to finish about how his nature and abilities clash and how his relationship with fighting develops. But Goten and Trunks's story I feel kind of stops abruptly?? Their fight with Buu as Gotenks is absolutely fanTASTIC and hilarious, but it's also entirely comic relief and after it's done they too are absorbed and then die and become useless. By the end of the series they're about as relevant as Krillin. I think it's weird considering they have innate ability like Gohan did (and a specialty fighting style!) but UNLIKE Gohan they ALSO are pumped up to fight, but they're never given the opportunity after their first go and their identities as fighters aren't really explored or developed. It just all becomes the Goku Show again. I just think it's a shame.

And to end it all off, tying it back to the actual original topic of this thread:

GOKU HASNT LEARNED JACK ****!!!!! THIS POOR OOB KID HAS ZERO SAY IN GOKU ENTERING HIS LIFE AND SPACE AND TURNING HIM INTO A SPARRING PARTNER..... MAYBE HE'S HAPPY AND IT TURNS OUT OKAY BUT MAYBE THIS IS JUST ANOTHER CHILD FOR GOKU TO RUIN GODDAMN

Just because he's a reincarnation of someone doesn't mean he isn't his own person you don't OWN HIM, GOKU!!!!

Also way to abandon your actual family. Again. Like they're better off without you but you've done this to them how many times........

In Conclusion, I love Gohan and Goten and Trunks and Vegeta and Piccolo and everyone else who isn't Goku, who is, I can now authoritatively state, THE WORST ANIME DAD EVER

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

[Quote=CuccoLady]Just because he's a reincarnation of someone doesn't mean he isn't his own person you don't OWN HIM, GOKU!!!![/quote]

I lol'd pretty hard. 10/10.

What did you think of Hercule? He got some pretty good character development, I really like him as a character whereas in the Cell Saga he was just there.

[Valigarmander]

Now watch Battle of Gods.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

[QUOTE="Valigarmander, post: 1594357, member: 30663"]Now watch Dragon Ball GT.[/QUOTE]

FTFY.

[Apollo the Just]

^^ I tried to but in the first 2 minutes it recapped Gohan fighting Cell and I started crying so maybe I'll do that tomorrow instead

^^^ I really liked Hercule's development in this saga. Also I saw clips of him being an adorable grandpa in Super, so. THUMBSUP

[Valigarmander]

^^ Them's fightin' words.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

[QUOTE="Valigarmander, post: 1594361, member: 30663"]^^ Them's fightin' words.[/QUOTE]

does bog have mustache vegeta

yeah thats what i thought

[Valigarmander]

...You win this round.

[Wicked Witch of the Crest]

Hey, even Saiyans can be dorks. To say the least, it's blatant they tried to make them seem more varied if given the chance to be more than killing machines. Problem is, some weren't given proper interaction to do so. Chi Chi is actually hyper violent if you think about it. Is it any wonder why Goku has trouble being a father when his own wife has some rather major anger issues? Bulma is a far more decent person, which is why Vegeta is able to develop as a better person in the long run.

Also, while it's true Vegeta was also trained effectively early on to be a warrior, he also died straight out while learning a lesson about his ego meaning little in the grand scheme of things. Goku hardly gets taught anything when he's killed during the Raditz fight. Hell, his old rival(so to speak), Piccolo, properly trains Gohan how to be a man and fend for himself. But he still helps the kid in the long run. Gohan isn't exactly given a fair life, mind you, for many reasons, and when Piccolo actually calls out Goku on a lot of his crap, something's up. What makes it stranger is that Piccolo is not technically male. That concept doesn't exist for Namekians. However, it seems the race itself is just inherently masculine, and Piccolo just is acting natural. That's why he seems like a father figure(when he's just a normal parent figure when in reality) to everyone. Perception of his race.

[Valigarmander]

The weirdest thing is, Piccolo is only four years older than Gohan.