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This is a topic I have been actively thinking about since Frozen debuted and was so, so widely acclaimed as being the most feminist **** to grace the earth with its presence.

Ok, that statement was heavily biased by my own [[OBJECTIVELY CORRECT]] personal opinion, but bear with me.

It made me start thinking about how now, there's definitely been a movement toward having more progressive media. Better representation of minorities, addressing (explicitly) matters and working to "undo" lame stereotypes and norms in the medium. Like the white manly guy winning the white girl in the end, a girl who never has a conversation that doesn't revolve around aforementioned man.

And so I wanted to discuss how we see this in media. What are some instances where you think it was progressive in some way and was really good? Has it ever detracted from the subject matter? Were there some attempts that simply were botched and sad? What makes it work?

For example, in my own personal opinion Frozen wasn't particularly progressive. I can go into that later if anyone is interested. Even despite this though, the reason Frozen kind of let me down as a movie was that "being progressive" was... Kind of its selling point? Like, it's not really "the Disney movie with the eternal winter" so much as "the one where the sisters love each other." It's kind of not really about anything EXCEPT that. Like, Mulan had a super lady soldier kicking ass but it was also about family and war and had a larger plot outside of the conflict of the story. We had cultures and a war and stuff that put the story in a larger world context. In Frozen, we have no context... we have a culture that apparently also is connected to other cultures that we don't know, somehow, because people visit; ice powers that are somehow apparently considered bad; no plot OUTSIDE of the sisters' deal. In my opinion, this detracted from it. The movie can be reduced to "that movie about the sisterly love." Mulan was also progressive, but it was much more than "that movie with the girl soldier."

They both have a progressive theme but one, in my opinion, is a far superior MOVIE. And it also gets its message across better despite having more to it than just that.

TV shows are awesome, too, IMO because they are more suited to tackling a lot of issues especially if they are episodic. Gravity Falls's episode about Gideon and the Friendzone is easily one of the greatest most important episodes ever because it's true, it's relevant, and it's still hilarious. Gravity Falls and Adventure Time (among others) use super awesomely cartoony scenarios to talk about real stuff and make it over the top and hilarious, but still substantial. I think that's pretty powerful, too.

I guess it's just best for me when your work talks about important things while still being its own thing. I guess my issue is, when your work doesn't feel like it has an identity OUTSIDE of the issue you are trying to tackle.

Thoughts

Ok dp bear with me a moment my phone freaked its **** let me edit this into a legible and understandable essay gimme a sec my paragraphs done got mixed up somehow

MOBILE WHYY

E: ok think I got this we coo

frozen isn't really progressive beyond not really focusing on men at all, which is something lots of other disney movies do.

thats it, thats the extent of its progress.

i figure disney will make something progressive around the same time i figure out how to do a quintuple backflip.

I thought Maleficent was pretty progressive, as Disney goes.

Edit: That's actually probably not giving it enough credit. Go see it, tho.

Disney.



Never mind me.

Carry on, carry on.

I think Frozen is interesting because almost for the first time (in forever, haha see whut I did there) people were actually talking about the fact "wow, this is a successful movie that people like and it's not about romantic love and doesn't have a traditional hero." And the fact that it was such a big deal is what's most noteworthy - because the concept of writing a movie about sisters kicking ass is still rare (and how problematic is that?).

I've not actually heard anything about Frozen, but I assumed everyone loved it because it was a Disney movie.

If a movie can present social commentary or progressive thoughts without it interfering with the movie's plot or feeling out of place, I don't mind it. It has to be written into it well, though. If Frozen's biggest thing is "look at how progressive we are," then chances are I will continue not being interested in watching it.

I still like Frozen. I definitely thought it had merit beyond being "progressive," and I wouldn't really call it a one-trick pony in that regard. In my mind, the Not Fearing Yourself theme was incredibly prevalent and was done very well.

I definitely think that it's good when TV shows and Movies hit on deeper themes in good ways, as long as they don't get all heavy-handed and Glee-ish and Sorkin-y about it. For instance, shows like Parks & Rec and Brooklyn Nine Nine have skirted around some touchy issues, but they did it with style and finesse, never once hitting you over the head with "WE'RE DOING THIS TO BE PROGRESSIVE, LOOK LOOK LOOK." It can be a fine line to walk, but it's pretty effective when done well.

Val appreciates it the most when it doesn't feel forced, when it doesn't affect the plot (though there can be well-executed exceptions to this one), and when it isn't broadcasted the way ML just described. That thing that happens at the end of ParaNorman is a nice example.

What does progressivism even mean anymore? More focus on women and minorities? Breaking old stereotypes?

I'd say in terms of art, breaking old stereotypes, or "going against the grain" and giving a more well-rounded picture of a character beyond the stereotype, like in the films of Kenji Mizoguchi.

[USER=26651]@ML[/USER]: oh man I am so glad you brought up Glee. That is the greatest example ever of trying too hard. And by greatest I mean worst. holy hell.

Like, Adventure Time touches on about as many issues as Glee (thinks it) does, but it does it in interesting ways or through metaphors and is very clever about it. Glee is literally "OH EM GEE LOOK, GAY PPL": the show.

What I like best about Adventure Time is that it does things like ~have good female characters~ but rather than the Glee approach, which is to have episodes about how Good the female characters are oh look at how great this show is, it just has episodes about plenty of other stuff in which the female characters just be good and are just a part of what makes it successful. IMO that's how to do it.

just don't be glee is how

I'm still not sure why Frozen of all movies became a sort of poster child for progressivism. It seems silly overall.

Glee in general is awful and self-important. Especially considering that it initially was a sort of parody of teen dramas and then became the exact thing it was making fun of (if not worse)

I'm in favor of people making media where their interests and their audience lie. IE, Starship Troopers is regarded as allegory for communism and western reactions to its rise. I don't think it necessarily has to really send much of a message, it just has to use a grain of someone's personal direction to establish the core of the logic inherent to the story. Even if the Smurfs was in some part a commentary on communist ideals while also promoting the notion of individualism, for instance, I don't think it necessarily has to have an end result in mind other than being a good story.

In that regard, stories should be made because the teller feels that they want to make a story. Not really for other reasons, although your personal ethos can be regarded as the foundation upon which you will build.

[QUOTE="Deku Trii, post: 1466617, member: 18320"]I thought Maleficent was pretty progressive, as Disney goes.

Edit: That's actually probably not giving it enough credit. Go see it, tho.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I forgot to talk about Maleficent in this thread because I did in the other thread.

IMO, as far as progressive themes go, Maleficent nailed what Frozen kind of groped and failed at, again, IMO. Because in the end I feel like Frozen was in fact a lot more about romance than it pretended to be.

I'm sorry I keep bringing back up Frozen I didn't intend for this thread to be CL Hates Frozen because i dont i promise let it go is my favorite sequence ever and it was a cute movie i just keep seeing people fawn over its themes and i am like whyy so I'll drop that topic here, but if you see Maleficent you'll see why it's relevant in this particular discussion

do see maleficent btw it's good [[although [[[comment re: the film's take on the story, don't read if you wanna go in 100% fresh]]] [spoiler]if you're looking for a movie where maleficent is still the villain while being the main character this isn't the one for you[/spoiler]]]

Just keep in mind that the lead girl in Frozen was so self-centered and ditzy she had to have a mentally-challenged comic-relief snowman tell her what love was. I honestly felt like the only real message in the film was that Disney parents are literally the worst at parenting and that young people are dumb as all hell.

"Come on sister it's late our parents are asleep let's play games with your DEADLY MAGIC." And then the little girl dies because it turns out that you can't be un-stabbed by icicles. The end.

The thing about Frozen is that it subverted a number of the usual Disney tropes. I though that was pretty cool and refreshing on its own. I saw the "girl power" thing as an afterthought to that.

Back to the general topic though: media progressiveness isn't a bad thing. It reflects that we live in a society that is not longer just about white males.

[QUOTE="King Bomby, post: 1466872, member: 17840"]I'd say in terms of art, breaking old stereotypes, or "going against the grain" and giving a more well-rounded picture of a character beyond the stereotype, like in the films of Kenji Mizoguchi.[/QUOTE]

Have you seen the movie Hara Kiri? Either the old one or the remake or both. There is a lot of social commentary in it, and it never has to go "look how progressive this is." It is debatable if it even counts as progressive. As noted by a few people above, progressive often means "look, these people are not white" or "look, gay people". So I guess a series about homosexual Ethiopian Jews living in Taiwan would be the most progressive thing ever, right? Even if it was just them living and doing stuff, it would still be progressive.

Sometimes I think to myself that I'd like to make a movie about a racist, sexist, non-gendered asian who is also a jew, which doesn't really have any point or moral and in which nobody is punished for their ill behavior, just to mess with audiences who try to simplify things like race issues.

Regardless of how flippant we are about it, Kil, I'm pretty certain "look, these people are not white" is an important facet to the concept that a lot of casting is racially motivated, and it doesn't have so much to do with the story as it does how much subversive racism we tolerate on the side of employing non-whites.[DOUBLEPOST=1401926712,1401926379][/DOUBLEPOST][QUOTE="Kil'jaeden, post: 1467216, member: 26719"]So I guess a series about homosexual Ethiopian Jews living in Taiwan would be the most progressive thing ever, right? Even if it was just them living and doing stuff, it would still be progressive.[/QUOTE]
Sadly, just showing that they are normal people and that they can be likable and successful and healthy and not making it into how their 'alternative lifestyle' or whatever challenges them would be relevant and progressive in today's climate. The problem is the inherent closed-mindedness to the media's traditional concept of normalcy and how casting is racially motivated and characters are stereotyped as all hell.