Goku: Who's stronger than him?!

Deepfake · #461

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote: I found this little piece of info here pertaining to Phoenix. "If the Phoenix Force is harmed or killed, it will form an "egg" of cosmic power, incubate in the White Hot Room, and hatch out completely healed." If this is true, there is no way to win, not for anyone. Tell me if I am wrong on this, if it can be completely defeated 100%. Otherwise, it's pretty unfair.

More loopholes, hmm? Goku himself has come back from the dead repeatedly, even without the power of the dragon balls to aid him. As Panfan mentioned, if we are to assume that the combatants must inhabit a physically corporeal body - then the Phoenix will manifest in the body of a host, ignoring the thoughts and abilities of the host body. Easy fix.

If Goku can return from the dead, even circumstantially, then the fight has to be set to a simple defeat - at the stage where the character dies is where the fight ends. Otherwise, Goku cannot be "completely defeated" either. The "if the phoenix is harmed or killed" only applies to the very presence, or soul of the Phoenix. Its host body will be destroyed. Goku's soul has never been destroyed, either. Upon his death, he returns to the land of the dead.

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! · #462

Sorry about how my points are always randomly stated. =)

Goku has returned without Dragon Balls but it was always through the power of something or someone else and not with his own abilities. I said alread that outside interference aside from the one on one battle is prohibited by my obviously flawed and much hated rules. Goku is mortal just like anyone. Circumstance simply created an opening for him to return.

Don't compare Marvel writers to Akira Toriyama? Why, because they pale in comparison of the hailed writer of something more popular than green buff guys? Neat reasoning genious.

About flying...it kinda helps if you're virtually untouchable by way of speed and distance so flying and being the speed of light gives him an edge on the Hulk the size of a mountain. It's a reasonable argument and saying it's not without something to back it up is ignorance.

While Goku is going the speed of light, despite the laws of physics denying him this ability, he can do whatever he can normally do in Instant Transmission. Just watch his fight with Meta Cooler. Also, Goku in the show STATES in plain english that he moves at the speed of light with his Instant Transmission. Besides, even if I were to take that Wiki into account as the truth, since it even isn't sure, we could assume he is FASTER than the speed of light. If he is somewhere instantly then there is no time required for distance traveled. Meaning he can go anywhere and if he were to race light to a certain location, he'd beat it there since light has to travel while Goku just "appears". I still say he's the speed of light.

Sorry I never read the comic books on the Hulk, I am just using what experience on his ass I do have. Sorry, correct me or fill me in if you so choose, I look up as much info on these guys as I can. Just present your argument and I will do my best to counter.

"It seems to me that you seem to think Goku can survive the heat of the core of a star because there exist characters who have endured the heat of a star, and Goku can't be weaker than them so he MUST be able to survive the heat of a star."

Yep. DBZ is a simple universe where Power Levels and special abilities dictate power. For example, Frieza can surive in outer space, Piccolo can regenerate any missing body parts and those powers dictate what they can survive, that paired with Power Levels. So if Goku and Gohan are shot into the Sun and Gohan dies, it's only because he's weaker. Cooler has no special ability to be protected from the Sun so since he's weaker, Goku must survive.

I didn't know Gray Hulk existed. How can I argue about him, all I know about him is he's smarter than green Hulk. I'll check up on this guy and everyone else I don't know as soon as I can.

Ness, I think his strength is obviously great but his speed is to be determined since, he can travel quickly in the game with his running teleport but he doesn't ever battle with it's use unlike Goku. I think he'd lose due to speed and maybe physical stature would play a role.
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Still just chippin' away at the arguments presented. Lobo will be included next for sure. =P

Calamity Panfan · #463

With your dedication about Goku going the speed of light and ability to survive every weapon ever, and ****ing stars, I think Goku could be classified as a Godmode character if all of this is true. Because I'm sure even Kefka would die from an O or B class star.

And yes, I said it. The Marvel writers run circles around Akira Toriyama. All Akira Toriyama ever did was create Generic Action Series A. Marvel and DC writers can actually make you feel the characters. If a character dies, you're sad. With DBZ, if a character dies, "awwww" but you know they'll be back in five chapters. People thought Superman was dead for a YEAR before he returned. I don't follow comics as much these days, but I'm pretty sure that Captain America's still dead. Toriyama can't write one death without him/her coming back eventually. I don't think DBZ is that special anyway, people only love it just because it was one of the few animes America had before we got imported stuff every day. Let's say Naruto came out the time DBZ did and DBZ just came out recently. Would it be hailed as much as it is? Probably not. But this part is completely off-topic.

And talking to Loot, he told me that Goku admits nothing can survive the heat of the sun when he sends Baby to the sun, and that Cooler died, but was rebuilt, so he didn't just go "o lol teh sunz is week 4 me." And according to him, Broly and Omega Shenron are stronger. But I don't want to drag him in the debate.

Lurch1982 · #464

Col. Les Claypool wrote: If a character dies, you're sad. With DBZ, if a character dies, "awwww" but you know they'll be back in five chapters. People thought Superman was dead for a YEAR before he returned. I don't follow comics as much these days, but I'm pretty sure that Captain America's still dead.

To be fair, there was an old saying that "Nobody in Comics are really dead.*"

*Except Bucky, Jason Todd, Uncle Ben, and Gwen Stacy.

Yet all of them were brought back (though Stacy was a clone and Uncle Ben was from an alternate reality). Bucky is Winter Soldier, Jason Todd somehow was brought back and retconned. I mean, its really the same thing. AFAIK, Captain America is still dead. But I'll put down a symbolic bet with anyone that CA will be back before they release the movie in a few years.

I mean, come on. They killed Aunt May in the Civil War series, yet brought her back when they ruined Spiderman by dropping a Dr. Strange plotline into the series (Devil bargin to reboot Spiderman and bring back Harry Osborne).

Calamity Panfan · #465

But still, with Akira Toriyama, he can't get through a single story without bringing back all the dead characters.

At least in comics, they can get through complete story arcs without having a character return.

Another example of comic writings telling a better story is personal problems. Comics show that it's not easy being a superhero. Tony Stark may have been a big hero who saved thousands of people, but he's also had complete stories dealing with his alcoholism. When a villain finds out your identity, they use that against you. They may kidnap your girlfriend or family member or even kill them. Name one instance something like that has happened in DBZ besides Raditz kidnapping Gohan at the beginning. There's not as much depth in Toriyama's characters.

Deepfake · #466

Too much BS, did not read.

Lurch1982 · #467

Serial Miller wrote:Too much BS, did not read.

You don't have to because Lobo wins.

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! · #468

When I access a PC, Lobo's goin' down =D

Um, WTF? King Kai, Piccolo and lots of minute characters like Dabura died and never came back and characters like Buu and Nail may as well be dead.

Drama is overrated. DBZ is one of the greatest action animes ever. But it did have some drama in DBZ movies more often than the show but it did exist. Look at the legendary (IMO) episode where Krillin begs for help, pleading for his childhood friend, Goku, to save his life before being blown to chunky bits right before everyone's eyes...its there if you look.

Erdawn Il Deus · #469

You can't compare Marvel and DBZ because one is a single-author's story versus a compendium of smaller stories told and re-told by a whole other compendium of authors. Marvel has its terrible and its great. This is also DBZ's downfall though, because its level of great or whatever is static - and is thus over or undershadowed depending on who's writing at the time. IE - Frank Miller's Daredevil run. In terms of characterisation and depth and plot and drama and script completely crushes Dragonball Z and everything in it, while a lesser take would not. Let us also remember that Dragonball was originally written for a younger audience, while Marvel aims at an adult audience and thus can explore more mature themes. Its a moot argument on either side.

Calamity Panfan · #470

I'm just a guy who demands a lot of depth to his characters, seeing their backstories, I want to know why the hero fights crime, I want to know how the villain became who s/he is. Though this doesn't mean I need to see every minor character's past (looking at you Naruto.) DB is good for action, but it could be much better storywise.

But this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! · #471

Script? For the most part yes but at its peaks and certain movies, absolutely not. Well, honestly I know very little about Daredevil apart from his minute appearance in the Spidey toon. So he could be interesting but its not...my taste =P DBZ certainly has the action down.

And comics were originally aimed at children.

The character of Trunks, Goku, Gohan and to a lesser extent, the others are fleshed out well. Goku is a very detailed character at the very least, and he grows in every aspect in DB/Z.

Calamity Panfan · #472

I do agree that Trunks is pretty fleshed out, since I saw the movie having to do with the future and the androids and what not. Maybe I'd agree more if I saw the other movies. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or the money for them.

Lurch1982 · #473

Comics haven't exactly been aimed at kids for about 20 years.

#474

Cartoons and comics were originally, when they were first made, aimed at adults. Maybe when you were born they were primarily made for children. Then again, you don't live in Japan, where there is easily more manga/comics for adults than there are for kids.

Joker · #475

Erdawn Il Deus wrote:You can't compare Marvel and DBZ because one is a single-author's story versus a compendium of smaller stories told and re-told by a whole other compendium of authors. Marvel has its terrible and its great. This is also DBZ's downfall though, because its level of great or whatever is static - and is thus over or undershadowed depending on who's writing at the time. IE - Frank Miller's Daredevil run. In terms of characterisation and depth and plot and drama and script completely crushes Dragonball Z and everything in it, while a lesser take would not. Let us also remember that Dragonball was originally written for a younger audience, while Marvel aims at an adult audience and thus can explore more mature themes. Its a moot argument on either side.

You sir are a road scholar and a hero !! Frank Millers run on DD made my DD collection all the more valuable. He now shares a special section in my storage unit inside the fire proof file cabinets.

Also I have yet to see Goku's Instant Transmission teleport him through time. Sure it can send him anywhere he wants but it still restricts him to the current timeline he exists in. A smart warrior with the abilites to bend time could simply either stop time and then kill him or simply teleport to the moment in time where he is concieved and destroy his planet instead. Phoneix when not inhabiting a human form can transcend the streams of time. Thus as the eternal spirit of reberith she could easily wipe Goku off the face of the earth by simply manipulating the time stream.

How is goku supposed to move or fight some one that can stop time and keep him stuck in repose. And when I say stop time, I don't mean Einstiens theory of moving faster than the speed of light so that everything around you seems to be frozen, but instead the actual act of stopping time from moving forward.

Deku Tree · #476

I'm a Civil Engineering major. That sort of makes me a road scholar.

#477

...damn. Go sit in the corner and think about why you shouldn't have said that. XD

Gumchum · #478

Who added "serious business" on to the tags list? Seriously. Awesome.

Calamity Panfan · #479

That was me. =D

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! · #480

But Joker, without a host, isn't Phoenix indestructable and keeps hatching from eggs and what not?

Also, Goldo in DBZ could temporarily freeze time. Temporarily. Every power and ability, every defense must be beatable at some level, it needs a drawback. Goku's energy attacks can be absorbed in DBZ actually aiding his foes and while powerful, not unbeatable. It also takes a toll on him. This time manipulation better have a drawback. Even Instant Transmission only works if he can envision his destination.